I hear you, and I'm with you. But...(You knew that was coming, right?)
-It's not good spirituality, or good psychology to focus on running an away from something. And it's not good catechesis to make people run AWAY from Hell rather than encourage and inspire them to run TOWARD God. We have to be motivated by Love—even perhaps mystery—but not by fear.
-But I'd rather people be terrified of hell than to think Heaven is automatic, no matter what. The Church does not teach that either, yet that is people's default frame of mind. I think there needs to be a better balance.
-I have never in my life experienced the Hell-shaming or Hell-threatening you mention here. I keep hearing about these awful, evil wizards of the Church but I have yet to meet one in my entire life as a very active Catholic.
-Maybe repeating myself a bit, but I want to re-cap. Hell is real, people can actually wind up there. Many are on the road to perdition, few find the road to salvation, etc. etc. But hell should absolutely not be the main focus of any catechesis. It's limiting, it's boring, it's upside-down catechesis. "HELL, HELL, HELL" is the best a catechist or evangelizer has to offer, they're in the wrong business.
God bless and be with you. Thanks for great posts.
Father, the Priest telling the boy he and his family are going to hell is misguided, I believe your example of oversleeping and choosing to not go to mass being not a grave sin is equally problematic.
It is my understanding that there are three components to a mortal sin: grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent of the will. CCC 1857-61.
I believe it would be agreed that missing mass is a grave matter. (CCC 2192) Would understanding that be considered full knowledge? And I would think choosing then (upon waking) to not go to mass would be full consent of the will, no?
“The whole of man's history has been the story of our combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.” CCC 409
Overall I think your point of not scaring people to do good but doing good because of the Love of God should be the message. Yet what is done has to be directed to God to be a good.
“Things are only good only so far as they participate in God.” St. Catherine of Genoa, The Treatise on Purgatory.
Certainly we must fear the choices we make.
“Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth.” CCC 1036
St. Catherine of Genoa also writes “In passing out of this life the soul is fixed for good or evil, according to its deliberate purpose at the time… because after death the will can never be free, but must remain fixed in the condition in which it was found at the moment of death.”
What would happen to that man who overslept then chose not to go to mass if he died at that point after making the decision not to go having no time to repent?
We have moved 3 times since I joined The Church in 2018. In the 3 parishes as well as many more Masses I’ve attended while traveling I have maybe heard hell spoken about once or twice and not in any way that left the “fear” of hell in my mind. Yet that may have been to my detriment. Certainly Love should be the central message yet hell is very real and should be taught (more frequently than 0?) as well.
Thank you for taking the time to read my column. Obviously, we basically disagree on some issues. However, you may not know me well. Anyone who knows me is aware that I teach prayer is essential and if our focus is on following rules more than prayer then we are missing the point.
In fact, I also teach that if we follow the rules perfectly, we will live perfectly the minimum standard of Catholicism.
The saints always made it clear that we followed the rules out of love of God and following out of fear is the worst of all motivations. So, we need to focus on growing in love of God and neighbor which is the basis of the commandment.
Yes that includes going to Mass, however, if it is done under duress then you may be fulfilling the rules and not growing in love of God and neighbor. I warn against making it a habit to miss Mass but I do not say that it is by default a mortal sin and neither does the church. It is serious matter but the question of whether it is a mortal sin needs to be addressed with a confessor and pastor.
This is why I disagree with this focus on Hell as the motivation for living our faith. It truly misses the point. Hell is real and of course I present here the actual church teaching on Hell from Pope St. John Paul II. His letter also makes it clear that Hell needs to be taught as an understanding of the freedom we have but not in order to give anxiety and fear; this is what I see all the time.
So yes, missing Mass is serious matter. However, if one goes to Mass strictly because one fears Hell then the person needs to understand the faith to a much, much deeper level.
I hear you, and I'm with you. But...(You knew that was coming, right?)
-It's not good spirituality, or good psychology to focus on running an away from something. And it's not good catechesis to make people run AWAY from Hell rather than encourage and inspire them to run TOWARD God. We have to be motivated by Love—even perhaps mystery—but not by fear.
-But I'd rather people be terrified of hell than to think Heaven is automatic, no matter what. The Church does not teach that either, yet that is people's default frame of mind. I think there needs to be a better balance.
-I have never in my life experienced the Hell-shaming or Hell-threatening you mention here. I keep hearing about these awful, evil wizards of the Church but I have yet to meet one in my entire life as a very active Catholic.
-Maybe repeating myself a bit, but I want to re-cap. Hell is real, people can actually wind up there. Many are on the road to perdition, few find the road to salvation, etc. etc. But hell should absolutely not be the main focus of any catechesis. It's limiting, it's boring, it's upside-down catechesis. "HELL, HELL, HELL" is the best a catechist or evangelizer has to offer, they're in the wrong business.
God bless and be with you. Thanks for great posts.
Father, the Priest telling the boy he and his family are going to hell is misguided, I believe your example of oversleeping and choosing to not go to mass being not a grave sin is equally problematic.
It is my understanding that there are three components to a mortal sin: grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent of the will. CCC 1857-61.
I believe it would be agreed that missing mass is a grave matter. (CCC 2192) Would understanding that be considered full knowledge? And I would think choosing then (upon waking) to not go to mass would be full consent of the will, no?
“The whole of man's history has been the story of our combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.” CCC 409
Overall I think your point of not scaring people to do good but doing good because of the Love of God should be the message. Yet what is done has to be directed to God to be a good.
“Things are only good only so far as they participate in God.” St. Catherine of Genoa, The Treatise on Purgatory.
Certainly we must fear the choices we make.
“Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth.” CCC 1036
St. Catherine of Genoa also writes “In passing out of this life the soul is fixed for good or evil, according to its deliberate purpose at the time… because after death the will can never be free, but must remain fixed in the condition in which it was found at the moment of death.”
What would happen to that man who overslept then chose not to go to mass if he died at that point after making the decision not to go having no time to repent?
We have moved 3 times since I joined The Church in 2018. In the 3 parishes as well as many more Masses I’ve attended while traveling I have maybe heard hell spoken about once or twice and not in any way that left the “fear” of hell in my mind. Yet that may have been to my detriment. Certainly Love should be the central message yet hell is very real and should be taught (more frequently than 0?) as well.
Thank you for taking the time to read my column. Obviously, we basically disagree on some issues. However, you may not know me well. Anyone who knows me is aware that I teach prayer is essential and if our focus is on following rules more than prayer then we are missing the point.
In fact, I also teach that if we follow the rules perfectly, we will live perfectly the minimum standard of Catholicism.
The saints always made it clear that we followed the rules out of love of God and following out of fear is the worst of all motivations. So, we need to focus on growing in love of God and neighbor which is the basis of the commandment.
Yes that includes going to Mass, however, if it is done under duress then you may be fulfilling the rules and not growing in love of God and neighbor. I warn against making it a habit to miss Mass but I do not say that it is by default a mortal sin and neither does the church. It is serious matter but the question of whether it is a mortal sin needs to be addressed with a confessor and pastor.
This is why I disagree with this focus on Hell as the motivation for living our faith. It truly misses the point. Hell is real and of course I present here the actual church teaching on Hell from Pope St. John Paul II. His letter also makes it clear that Hell needs to be taught as an understanding of the freedom we have but not in order to give anxiety and fear; this is what I see all the time.
So yes, missing Mass is serious matter. However, if one goes to Mass strictly because one fears Hell then the person needs to understand the faith to a much, much deeper level.
Bravo. This is the truth!